CULTURE, Arts and Heritage Minister Datuk Seri Dr Rais Yatim is a veteran of the political stage, having served under four prime ministers. In 1987, he resigned as foreign minister in Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad's cabinet after the Umno group he belonged to lost in its bid for power. After returning to the fold in 1996, Rais was back in the cabinet following the 1999 general election. Speaking about his chequered political background, the 63-year-old culture maven, who is also an avid photographer, said he has no regrets about all that has happened to him.

What in your view is Malaysian culture?

To me the answer is very simple. It is what you see about people in this country. The way they live, the festivals they celebrate, the food they eat, the mode of their dressing and the way they greet each other and the way they bring up their young ones. All of these constitute Malaysian culture.

What is so important about culture that you need to have a ministry to look after it?

It is important because it gives the people we call Malaysians an identity peculiar to this country. Otherwise, how do we recognise them? It is through observing their culture. It is important because it is also a national identity.

So do we create this Malaysian culture consciously or allow it to develop by itself?

We allow it to develop by itself. We give it the freedom to develop on its own volition. But at the same time, we have to also help to shape it so that we get what we call the Malaysian characteristics which is indigenous to this country. This is in accordance with the decision of the cultural congress we had long ago. So while we allow our culture to evolve by itself we also make sure that it is based on the indigenous culture.

So there is also a conscious effort to ensure the culture that evolves also has traits of indigenous culture. Is this working well?

But I must say this is easier said than done. Sometimes, it is difficult to interpret what is really wanted. The Malaysian multi-cultural facets have been working well. But it is not easy to incorporate into this traits of the indigenous culture. What is it that we want to take? Mind you, the indigenous cultures too are not static. For instance Malay culture, too, is evolving.

So it is not as simple as all that.

No. But overall, we are not that culture mad. Malaysians are very submissive to changes and have a lot of give-and-take kind of attitude. Of course, there is a very small core group of people who appear to be resistant to change. They believe Malay culture should remain as it is. But when you ask them what they mean by this, they cannot elaborate satisfactorily. Because, basically culture changes as value systems change. The only thing is, these changes are not well modulated or nurtured and planned. Those responsible do not strategise properly. As such the changes are much left to take their own shape.

For example?

The changes brought about by the entertainment and electronic media. These are very strong and have a powerful influence and no community in Malaysia can withstand them, remaining unaffected. To an extent, we have been influenced in terms of our cultural basis as well as cultural practices.

Another point is, people confuse dances, music and songs as being the bulk of culture. It is not. These are manifestations of how each community entertains itself. So, culture is a very, very wide field, as demonstrated by this pantun.

Membilang dengan satu

Tanya khabar dengan salam

Kalau dilipat sekecil kuku

Kalau disibar seluas alam.

It is a very wide field. But however wide it is, we still have to work on it.

You said there are some problems with the development of Malay culture. Can you elaborate?

This is a very interesting (issue) and at the same time it is muted. Muted in the sense that some people do not want to talk about it. At the same time there are those who wish to talk about it. But I believe in discussing it openly. Basically, traditional Malay culture -- the way the Malays lived -- emanated from the istana. The istana and the aristocracy set the standard. That's the fountainhead of Malayness. And essentially the Malays learnt good behaviour through the istana, like during the golden age of Malacca.

The aristocracy and the lesser aristocracy spread it. Such that a person is described as berbudi bahasa or cultured or of good breeding if his behaviour conformed to the ways of the aristocracy. It emerged from there. (It was) a dilution of court etiquette or the ways of the court.

Of course the further away a group of people was from the palace the more diluted the so-called "culture" was. Thus society is stratified culturally. And this stratification is further emphasised by the use of mode of address like patik and tuanku and the language. But over the years the ways of the istana, bombarded by all sorts of influences, also changed. And as a result, the culture of the Malays, too, underwent changes. But much remained. Berbudi bahasa remains central. So we have Malay culture as reflecting the sum total of their experiences.

So a Malay is a person who practises this way of life that you described?

Yes, it is legal as well. Under Article 160 of the Constitution a Malay is one who speaks Malay habitually, who professes Islam and conforms to the Malay custom. You cannot take away any of these and still call him a Malay. So now culture stems from there itself. You must have Islam, your Bahasa and your adat. Culture comes from there but the extrapolation of these three has not been an easy job. Since 1974 when I was in the Culture (Youth and Sports) Ministry with Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, we have been debating, we have been talking, about this problem. How to make Malay and other indigenous cultures an integral part of the national culture. And so we came up with the National Culture Policy. So, the indigenous culture becomes the core with traits of other cultures also becoming part of it. As these cultures evolve they too enrich the Malaysian culture.

Is religion a source of culture?

You see, we forget. We always think about Islam as only a religion but it is actually a very big source of culture. These are not being answered in full but this ministry is trying to "practise" it. From Islam, what are the tenets? After all, culture is a way of life. When you pray, when you believe in truth, when you believe in justice, it is culture. We have not done enough of that kind of work to interpose (this culture) into our lives. We have been very ritualistic. From the niat (intentions) to the sembahyang, we have been ritualistic but we have not interpreted its contribution to culture. We want to have a culture where a person who is cultured the Malaysian way is considered as a cultured person. That is one aspect I want to see this ministry get involved with.

A cultured Malay is described in Malay as a person who is berbudi bahasa. Which means he behaves well and speaks the proper language. So language is important in determining whether one is cultured or not.

Yes, language is important. Bahasa Melayu as the source of culture is not exploited. It is one of the richest sources. But sadly, the importance of Bahasa has not been promoted (so as) to be at par with English, now that we have Maths and Science being taught (in English) in school. It is also the dream of this ministry to see Bahasa Melayu come up alongside in culturalising things, in teaching things and in transporting the thoughts of the literary works from the West, from the Middle East into Bahasa. When you teach Maths and Science intertwined, naturally English becomes a language of knowledge. Where does that put Bahasa? Bahasa will have to trot along in a secondary role, whether you like it or not. This kind of argument some of my colleagues do not like but I have to tell the world.

But how do you do that? Bahasa will take a secondary role because we want to be a player in this globalised world. So Bahasa will have just to trot along.

It need not be so. We have to campaign that Bahasa should not be relegated to a secondary role. By campaigning on it, by nurturing the usage of it, by making language-based cultural programmes, right down to the Jawi script -- Bahasa need not have to play a secondary role. The language aspect of Jawi is very important. The Malays learnt their culture through the istana, in the olden days, through Jawi, not through Rumi. The Roman characters came later. And now that Jawi is as good as dead, this ministry is very sad.

But I am not just lamenting. I have just pushed through a cabinet paper for this week that Jawi must be resurrected culturally. Culturally meaning we must have the khat (Jawi calligraphy), we must have posters in Jawi, we must glamorise Jawi as in the Quran, we must anecdotise Jawi. But again I must tell you that this is not very well-received by certain people. It seems this kind of effort will have a negative impact on the development of our country. This kind of talk I am prepared to debate.

If the Chinese can develop their characters why can't Malays keep Jawi as well? Give me a good answer. So far I have not got a good answer. So, that is why I have pushed this paper and I have requested my colleague (Education Minister) Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein to support it so that in school it becomes a very integral part of our campaign. And besides Jawi, which is the heart of Malay culture, we must also popularise our pantuns, bidalan, seloka, perumpamaan and make them come into everyday use again. That is not easy if I do not get assistance from the schools.

Not many people, when speaking Malay these days, are using perumpamaan (similes) anymore or spicing up their conversations with pantun and seloka.

You are right. So that is it. And you know, it is easier said than done because we have left Bahasa behind too far, too fast. Within 48 years we have not been talking about culture. We have been talking about, "what do I get?" My scientific knowledge, the material things I must get, the bigger salary, the physical things that you want to have in the house. You go to a Malay house, what do you see inside? You see Italian furniture and very little of Malay artifacts.

Also I think adat is not much observed these days.

True, true. We only see adat practised in the heart from where it used to emanate -- the istana. The istana is no longer the emanator of the adat. Your TV set is one now. Anyway to see adat in practice we go to the istana during weddings or other ceremonies. Elsewhere it is all almost gone. Therefore I am trying to have this ministry revive all those practices. Otherwise, we lose our identity. If we have no culture what cultural basis to the Malaysian culture are we talking about? Of course this ministry cannot do it single-handedly. But we are starting somewhere. We must identify adat for the common folk, adat for the aristocrat, adat for the istana. Gotong-royong is also an adat. Mandi Safar is gone. Okay, so it is gone because it is not in conformity with Islam. But to my horror, I find that the Malays do not dance anymore.

You mean no more ronggeng or joget?

Yes. That was why I put this idea of having dances, but with your wife. So the partners of a ronggeng are married couples. Let us revive and popularise Malay dances. Let us all dance at weddings to celebrate the occasion. We need to keep our heritage alive -- the zapin, joget and inang. And this is one thing that the ministry is encouraging. I am going to introduce it in some of these Hari Raya gatherings. But let us dance with our spouse, not with somebody else, otherwise we will get into trouble ... although it is not like we are touching each other.

But you will become into conflict with some of the ulama?

True, but I do not care. I can give the answer. So long as I do not violate Islam basically, that is it. Okay, since we are into it now let me say this. Due to sanctions by our ulama a large part of our culture has been killed also. Of course, fine. We cannot argue with it because religion is something that you cannot argue (about), it is whether you accept or not. Alright. But dances like joget, zapin, inang should be given a chance to survive and we (should) make the majlis for it.

But what about the other cultures?

I am also encouraging traditional dances by the Chinese, the Indians, the orang asli.

On Article 160, about: you are a Malay if you speak Malay, practise Malay culture and are a Muslim, what about a Chinese who practises Malay culture, speaks Malay and then if he converts into Islam, is he a Malay?

It would be very interesting to see that Chinese go to court and get himself declared a Malay. But no one has done this yet.

But legally speaking, can he do it?

Yes. Constitutionally a Malay is (defined under) Article 160. But anthropologically, sociologically, that is a different matter. But if you want something legal, go and have a prayer. Being a lawyer, I think it would be a very interesting case. I think he will win.

Culture is not all traditional. What we regularly do today is also culture. Like roti canai is part of our culture today.

Yes. Culture can be divided into traditional culture and modern culture. Clearly demarcated, each balances the other. Also the pattern of the other cultures in Malaysia must be clear. While they combine to form Malaysian culture, the characteristics of each culture -- Chinese, Indian, Malay and other indigenous cultures -- must be recognisable. We ought to know basically what is Chinese culture, Malay culture and Indian culture and other cultures, in order for the three to be imbibing and harmonising with one another to form Malaysian culture.

Not forgetting the insistence of the national cultural policy, of course.

Of course. Having said that, the national culture policy remains intact and what I have been telling you just now. We will also look at heritage, and that is the reason we are trying to preserve as many early buildings as possible. These buildings, especially along Jalan Tuanku Abdul Rahman in Kuala Lumpur, are our cultural heritage as they represent things created during the period of our shared experience. They are our common heritage. We will be one step ahead in wanting to create what is history for us, what is identity for the Malays and for the Malaysians for example. But also having said that, this ministry is very concerned with the value system because values create culture. Hence, we have embarked on the Budi Bahasa campaign and we are going onto our second phase. We are going to assist authorities in keeping the environment, the rivers, roadsides and houses clean. We want to show that we, in our collective culture, abhor littering.

Not getting anywhere on this, I think.

You are right. We still have not inculcated the culture of having clean toilets, for example. After 50 years of existence, it is still a problem although those of the KLIA for example, are good.

I am not sure the Malay culture as we know today or 20 years ago will survive. As you said, Malays are forgetting their culture. Our traditional culture will gradually fade away and so will the modern one especially after bombardment by influences from stronger cultures. So what indigenous culture are we talking about when it is no longer in existence?

I am not that pessimistic. There is no one authority on earth or in any country that can say, "I can stop the development of other forms of culture or prevent foreign cultures from coming to my state or country". Because basically, culture is values. It is imbued from entertainment, it is imbued from learning and also education. Let us face it. About 13,000 graduates return from overseas after being away for about three or four years. Don't these people bring back something? They bring back western culture, western thinking, English. They themselves have undergone changes. They have become argumentative, for instance.

Also cultural influences come through the sky -- through television, Astro, the movies, the soap operas. And out of 24 films screened, there is (only) one local production. These are the odds I am facing. And they say with tongue in cheek, "kekalkanlah bahasa dan budaya kita" but the infrastructure is changing fast.

Nevertheless, I am saying to myself we got a job to do. As a nation we must have an identity. And so despite the influences our students bring back and influences from television, we must continue with our effort. The Bahasa Melayu must continue, for example. Our dances must be practised at majlis, at ceremonies. And meantime, we also tell people about the danger of cultural osmosis.

You mentioned education just now. I remember our second prime minister Tun Abdul Razak said in 1965 "our National Education Policy is aimed at bringing children of all races together, learning the same thing in the same way and under the same roof so that they will feel that they share the same ideal and the same country". But this is not happening.

Yes, it is not happening. You are right. To a certain extent it does happen. Let me admit again. Culture can be nurtured. It does not happen by chance. Culture can be nurtured in the cocoon or in the testing bed. Now what is the testing bed? The testing bed is education, the schools. Instead of sharing a common experience, we see polarisation of the races. No shared experience. This because there are Chinese schools and Tamil schools. And Sekolah Kebangsaan (SK) today is not what was envisaged long ago as a place our children learn and grow up together. We want all races to pass through the same schools, but they are not. In the 60s and 70s, yes, but not now.

Why is this happening?

Because they see certain things in the Sekolah Kebangsaan which frighten them. Too much religion, too much Islam. They became frightened. That is the big impediment to the races studying together under one roof. Therefore, if Islam in schools can be reduced, SK can once again play the role intended for it. Now it is not about the teaching of ugama that is being questioned. No, not that. Have religious classes by all means. But keep away Islam from other aspects of life in the school. No doa at the assembly, no doa in the classroom except during religious classes. Then, and only then can Sekolah Kebangsaan be the crucible where shared experience is cooked. Finally, we must improve the quality of teachers in SK.

You said Islam is also a source of culture and I agree with you. But the Islam that is imposed on us by the ulama does not help towards the creation of a national culture?

It is actually a Catch 22 situation. It would seem that culture and religion do not go together. But they do. The ministry is in quite a bind. Concerning the knowledge aspect of culture we have no problem with Islam. In terms of the value system, it's okay. But entertainment and music are problem areas.

Why?

Because when I joined cabinet in 1982, no women wore the tudung like you do. They wore their selendang and shawls and some not at all. Then in the mid-80s, things began to change. It was the new Islamic revival and its strong influence and its new values. So it is a new culture -- wearing of the tudung. Elsewhere, for instance, Islam has its own approach to music. However, there is no uniformity. For example some nasyid groups have string music while some groups only use the gendang. So sometimes it is not religion that dictates. And if you know it you can sometimes put your foot down to certain demands. So when you ask them, why is your music so dull? They say it is because they are prohibited from using certain instruments. Tell me which part of the Quran or hadith says that. Most of the time they have no answer. So it is just belief. We should break from this. I went to Egypt. I had a good time listening to the philharmonic orchestra of Egypt. Beautiful. Why can't we have it in our country? After all we are not asking people to undress. It is just music. This are some of our difficulties. Again, I have to repeat it is not an easy equation. So the ministry is treading on sensitive ground sometimes but by and by as they say, we get along.

So, I think it is not difficult for you to move from law to culture and the arts. After all I think you are a berbudi bahasa person.

Well, culture has been my interest for a long time. I started with this ministry, don't forget, in 1974. But that time, the ministry was a sibling of other things. Kementerian Kebudayaan Belia & Sukan. And then you have Kementerian Kebudayaan, Seni dan Pelancongan. And now all culture. I am happy. I am very happy. So, I come here from law. Law is something very exciting in many ways but culture is not a simple thing, as people say. In this ministry, either you sink on your own ignorance or you survive well because of your interpretation of what culture for Malaysia is. I am not too worried about the Malays losing some aspects of their traditional culture but I don't want them to lose their selves. I hope you follow that. Just losing yourself because of influences that come via Astro and the new cable network, globalisation, overseas education and everything. Therefore, you lose your identity. I do not want that to happen. So my job is to remind them all the time.

The second segment is to remind Malaysians we have got our own modern Malaysian culture in the open houses, the gotong royong, the political set-up. This is culture. People forget. Other elements are the ronggeng, the joget, the Chinese wayang, the nyonyas, putumayam, Thaipusam and so on. The food we eat, the way we talk to each other, the salam we give, the Selamat Pagi and vanakkam. And, of course, how dirty our rivers are is a reflection of our culture. Therefore, you have to be very optimistic here. You have to find ways and means.

That was why perhaps the Prime Minister's wife, Datin Seri Endon Mahmood, said she was happy you were appointed to this ministry.

I am flattered by that but I miss law, though. But at the same time it is a good thing. I can bring back certain things. It takes time though. This is my problem. For example for budi bahasa to come back, I need another few segments of campaign through TV broadcast and radio to the kampung, Felda, new villages, schools and family. Therefore we have to nurture all these through various programmes.

Some people may question, what is the use of going back to all these -- culture, jawi scripture and traditional dances? What is the purpose?

The purpose is to have an identity. To give meaning to Article 160. If you are a Malay, you speak Malay well, you are a Malay. If you talk Hebrew in your sleep, you are not a Malay even though you look like a Malay. So this is identity. It is a question of your core. In as much as our Chinese friends who can speak Mandarin and write Chinese characters are Chinese, culturally. The Jews are strong because they have a very basic foundation of their traditions wherever they were. That is a statement of fact. The Chinese are strong because they have a very deep social and cultural foundation. The Chinese can interpret the theory of light in Mandarin very well. I am not so sure the Bahasa Melayu can do it. Because we have not been too sure of what we want to do. This is my lamentation as minister for culture. But I am not at the same time championing that we should go back to 1409. No way. Or to the era before Merdeka. That is not what I mean. What I mean is the identity if the community must keep on growing with the community -- the positive ones. Caring for others, feeling for others, assisting others, having a clean environment, berbudi bahasa -- these are good. Why should you throw it away? So these are the arguments for the ministry to be in existence. Not only for the traditional dances, songs and music but also for the value system what we must have in place.

In the cultural shows, sometimes we see Chinese traditional dances being performed by non-Chinese. Is there a reluctance on the part of Chinese to participate in this kind of activity?

Yes. In some instances, there are not enough Chinese groups we can use. These are all our deficiency. For example, which Malay will do a Chinese dance readily? None. But we have it now in Istana Budaya. I have got girls and boys who can dance the Chinese dances.

But do you have Chinese there also?

Ha ... This is the question. We don't have enough of Chinese and Indian dancers in Istana Budaya, despite our advertisements and all that.

Why?

Well, this is a handicap we are facing. But we are not saying there are no people. We want to say the time will come when enough dancers of the other cultures will be there. So we are now conscripting the NGOs. They are now coming to dance the Malay, Chinese and Indian dances. You know Ramli (Ibrahim)? He will dance nothing else but Indian dance, for example. That is good. If we want a good portrayal of Indian dance, we ask Ramli for example. Then we have a group in Brickfields who will dance the Indian dance. Most of them are Indians. You cannot escape from this. But I would like more interchange. The Chinese can dance Malay dances and vice versa. That must be achieved. I have not achieved that fully yet but that is a dream I am pursuing. The other one is Chinese singing Malay songs and we want more Malays also to sing the Chinese songs. We have improvement there but not to the desired extent.

On your career. You have been serving the country since 1970s. How would you describe your life thus far? You have been in Umno, outside Umno and then back in Umno.

I must say I have had a very chequered political and social life and I have had a very interesting array of experiences which some of my colleagues have not. I have tasted the bliss of being in the administration. I have tasted the bitter brunt of being in the opposition. And the wilderness. And now I am back in the fold, thanks to Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad and Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi. I have served in so many capacities, I even forgot some of them. Figuratively, I have started from the bottom, unlike some of my friends who straight away go to cloud nine by becoming ministers. But I, and others like Pak Lah for example, we started right from below, from MP, parliamentary secretary, deputy minister and minister. But I have also been MB of Negri Sembilan. I enjoyed serving in so many capacities including the stint as an opposition politician. It gives me a perspective which my friends did not get. That is why I dare say so many things compared to some of my colleagues. About Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim for example, nobody wants to talk about him. I think it is all right as I was where he was, except go to jail. So they must understand when I comment on certain things. It is because of the experience and the perspective that I have.

I truly believe in the Malay-Chinese-Indian conglomerate of politics. There is no other way and Umno should be at all times strong. For it to be strong it must be intellectually strong and having leaders who focus on the multi-racial importance of the country. Otherwise, we cannot survive.

There are two things many people seemed to say about you. First when you gave your support to the Interfaith Commission and secondly when you said something about the ACA going after 18 more people after a minister and a businessman were charged. Care to comment?

To me, an interfaith communication or vibrancy should be the order of the day. If you can have political coalition, why can't you understand each other's religion better? After all the Quran also calls for understanding people and their religions. I have been singled out to be the one in the administration who supports this clearly. And I still stand by my words.

The other one is in terms of rule of law. For the rule of law to germinate, it must be seen to be done. It cannot be in theory alone. So, having pursued law very rigorously and in depth, I am a great believer in the benefits of the rule of law that is embedded in the constitution. The problem with us is we have the law there but we do not enforce it, we have the principle there but we don't recognise it. Until such time when we actually translate it into practice, we cannot be said to be sufficiently imbued by the rule of law. Rule of law does not mean whatever parliament asks you to do you do. That is just one part of it. Rule of law is the inculcation and the practice of having checks and balances. For every power there must be a power that checks it because we human beings would abuse it. History has been repeating this at every step. That is why when I said for example the 18 cases in 2004, some of them now are being pursued, some are halfway and this has got a lot to do with strengthening the judiciary as well as the Attorney-General's Department and the law enforcement part of our country. Again, that is culture. Once you do your enforcement work well, you interpret your law well and you respect the separation of powers intrinsically, the culture of government is set in motion.

Let's go back to the question of there being a tendency now of the executive gradually arrogating to itself most of the power and leaving less power to parliament and even the judiciary.

Well, it's what I have been saying since 1995. In fact, I wrote my thesis on it. My doctorate in Law is based on that study. The book Freedom Under Executive Power in Malaysia is there for everybody to read. It is my personal academic pursuit. I see it before my own eyes how the other segments of the government have become subject to the laws created by the executive and thereby arrogating power on to itself. (This is) still ongoing. And I think this must be re-examined. But to re-examine it, it needs an awareness of the law and how it operates. Sadly, we have not that value system within us throughout society. It emerges once in a while, then it goes off. Recently you will recall you have this national integrity plan. It is very good but you have to go further than that, by examining the laws of the country which are seen to be overly siding one element which could in the long run not benefit us. I mean overly siding the executive.

What do you think of Suhakam?

I was very happy when Suhakam was set up but again Suhakam is very limited in its overtures to overcome abuse of power in relation to human rights and things like that. But one thing I have to assure our colleagues is that in every power base there must be a balance to it. So Suhakam and perhaps the Integrity Institute of Malaysia should look into it and make recommendations. But you see finally it is the people. Everytime you go to the polls, the BN wins well. So it means only one thing: they approve what the government is doing. Anyway, I believe the people will always return BN to power .

But there are some, probably the elite like you say, they prefer a slightly stronger opposition.

Yes. But that is not the job of the government. It is the job of the people. My job is how to strengthen Pak Lah and his colleagues. If in so doing, it gives good dividend for Malaysians, I welcome it. But so long as we are not atrocious in our deeds, my guiding light is, at the end of the day, whatever your way, it must be just and fair. If you satisfy that yardstick I am happy.