In the second of a two-part interview, pop singer-songwriter Zuriani 'Ani' Zonneveld discusses her mission to use music to educate people about Islam. The executive director of the Progressive Muslim Union of North America, who is a Malaysian living in Los Angeles, speaks to JACQUELINE ANN SURIN and HUSNA YUSOP on a recent trip back here. Part 1 of the interview appeared here.

Yep!

I'm going to be very brutal. I think Muslims in America, I know all kinds of Muslims in America, feel that they know their faith. They have studied and have made a conscientious decision to practise Islam in a certain way, which I can respect. I have no issue about that at all.

But some assume they know their faith and their insecurity of that knowledge feeds into the holier-than-thou attitude. But as the Quran says, to you your own, to mine, mine.

But I think there is this sense of holier-than-thou. I think that's our problem. And the Quran says that one should never be holier-than-thou. Even the Jewish prostitute in the hadith (Sahihi Bukhari) who saved the dog was forgiven! So, there's no such thing as holier-than-thou in Islam.

It's hard to educate Muslims because I touch on really hardcore issues and people don't want to hear it if they are part of that problem. Issues like women's issues, honour killing, AIDS, or like the way we groom our girls to be docile and non-thinking beings, groomed to be wives and (chuckles), you know, subservient. And I'm really not into that. I wasn't raised that way. My parents raised me equal to the boys. They pushed me just as hard as they pushed my brothers.

In America, some Muslims are so afraid of the American values that they cling on to their own value systems. They teach their kids, 'Oh, our social (system) and our culture is more superior to the American's', you know.

So, they raise their kids in isolation, Muslim schools, Muslim friends, etc to the point that when the kids move on to college or live in the real world to work, they are like fish out of water and they don't know how to handle it.

I've seen people stray completely away from Islam as a result of that.

Islam is a great religion but you have to teach them in an intelligent way. You can't teach them, 'If you do this, you're going to hell.' That does not work with our kids nowadays!

If I tell my daughter, 'You can't eat pork', but I also have to tell her, 'But at a time when you're going to die and there's nothing else for you to eat, you're allowed to eat pork. Please do. Because God loves you, your life, so much so that God allows you to break that rule.'

That is the moral of the story. We don't teach the finer values of Islam. We teach about 'hell', everything is haram, which is false. It says in the Quran, beware of people who say everything is haram when it is not in the Quran. It says that! So, we need to start thinking about Islam in an intelligent way. And I think Muslims are just too afraid to do that.

Yes. They're afraid because it challenges their core beliefs, their foundation, and they're afraid it's going to completely pull the rug from underneath them and they won't know how to handle it. Which is understandable, you know.

If you go to a Christian, and you teach them something that is contradictory to their core values, any faith, any culture, any human being is going to feel that insecurity which is understandable. But, I think for Muslims to progress, we really need to start doing that.

To rethink, to question, which (is what) the Quran tells you and we don't do that enough. Our Islamic teachers tell us, 'Oh, don't ask any questions. Just take it for what it is.' That's not what the Quran says! And these are religious teachers. I challenge that. So, I have a real big issue with how we part with knowledge to our fellow Muslims, to students of Islam.

I don't claim to be a Muslim scholar. I just challenge them to go learn, go study! Don't assume you know your faith.

No ulama has told me I'm going to hell just because I'm singing but self-righteous Muslims do because I get that all the time, you know.

Or in regards to my inter-faith work, 'Oh, inter-faith work is haram. You're going to hell. May all the snakes crawl all over you' kind of thing, you know. Like, really ugly stuff! So, I write 'You go to hell.' Don't throw that at me.

People like that think they know what they're talking about and are arrogant too, and they're supposed to be religious? The more religious they are, the more arrogant they become. So what kind of Muslim are you?

Arrogance is not Islam. It's contradictory to being a good Muslim. Ego is contradictory to being a good Muslim, or any good human being, for that matter. So, for that reason, Muslims don't like to hear what I have to say.

No. Um, Malaysia I haven't been as vocal, you know, because I don't do a lot of work here. Most of my work is in the US. The vice-president of Isna says I'm negative about Islam. I'm not negative about Islam. I'm negative about Muslims! That's a big difference, ya! (chuckles) And this is supposed to be an intelligent person, so, I'm like, ok, whatever. 'You obviously haven't heard me.'

After 9/11, I really realised, 'Ok, I really need to step up to the plate. I can't just live myself as a Muslim in America as one of the silent majority, or just be silent.'

I really needed to be counted. I needed to correct the perception of Islam, especially after those b*****ds flew into the building (the World Trade Centre) in the name of Islam.

So I go out there and stick my neck out because I really believe in correcting the image of Islam.

After 9/11 you had all these 'religious people' knocking Islam and just dragging Islam through the mud, which made me really lose respect for religious leaders. One way of me staying sane was to join this inter-faith organisation called ICUJP (Interfaith Communities United for Justice and Peace) and I am on their steering committee.

I work with Christians, fellow Muslims, Jews, Buddhists who are just fantastic human beings.

For example, right after 9/11, the Friday, ICUJP people went to the closest mosque which is the mosque that I attend and they circled it to protect the Friday prayer worshippers in case someone decided to harm the worshippers and in case somebody decided to bomb it, you know. And these are people of other faiths. It brings tears to your eyes. It really does. This is the America that I know. The compassionate.

Everyday we say Bismillahirahmanirrahim (God the most gracious, the most compassionate) but we as Muslims have lost that compassion.

And here you have people who are non-Muslims who are so, so godly. It was pouring rain that Friday and there was this lady in a wheelchair, she was a Christian lady, it made me cry, too. It's just a beautiful ... and I wish that can be duplicated in Malaysia.

As a Muslim minority in America, I cannot survive without people like that, of all faiths. There are crazy Christians, there are crazy Jews, there are crazy Muslims. That's taken for granted.

There are crazies of all peoples, of all faiths, ya. But the most important thing is we, as normal practising people, who are very spiritual, we should all gather together, we should all work together no matter what religion you are because you know, it is all the same God.

All the same God, just praying in different ways. The term 'do unto others what you want others to do unto you'? It is in Islam, in Christianity, in Judaism, in Buddhism, in Hinduism, in Zoroastrian, and on and on.

And if we really practise that, 'do unto others what you want others to do unto you', we will not have any conflicts in this world because we really feel for the other person. It's very simple but human beings just don't do that!

Um, and this applies to a one-on-one relationship but it also applies to global matters, world relationships. If Israelis treated the Palestinian people the way they want to be treated, they won't be treating the Palestinian people the way they have been.

So as an activist in ICUJP, we demonstrate, we hold hearings, discussions, forums for the American public to know that there are hundreds of Muslims in jails, without trial.

And if it was just a Muslim organisation that was going to stand up, nobody would give a damn, nobody gives us any attention.

But the fact that it is an interfaith group led by powerful pastors, Anglican church and rabbis, and Buddhist monks, then it means more. So, that is the beauty of it. And as a minority, it is heartwarming to see such support from a multi-religious group.

As a minority in America I feel for the minorities in Malaysia. On paper, everyone's rights are protected. It's the same case in Malaysia, in America, in Europe, in Denmark, everyone is equal on paper. But the reality is that all over the world, the majority is always more arrogant and Muslims in Malaysia included.

In America it is the powerful Christian right. It is just the personality of being more dominant and being the majority, you always feel that you have the right over the others. It is a natural human nature.

As a Malaysian, I am a Malay, I am a Muslim, I am a practising Muslim, you know, it's very disheartening. Every time I come back, I see more and more arrogance by the Muslim community and for me, I can't understand it and I think it is going further, and further away from the teachings of Islam, from the Quran.

I think Muslims in Malaysia are no longer about pure faith, it is all contaminated with politics. I don't want to get into politics. I just want to stick with spirituality and faith. But if we were really to practise Islam, which says there is no compulsion in faith, back to that, then if you want to convert out of Islam it is your right to do so.

The meaning of being a Muslim is submission to God, you can't force someone to be submissive to whatever if one doesn't want to. That is what the Quran says! And here we are saying, if you convert out of Islam, then in some states you go to jail, right?

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I think it is incredibly important for Malaysia especially, the Muslim country that is being looked upon by the whole world, especially the Muslim world, as the model Muslim country. Because of our non-Muslim minorities that we have and their right to practise their faith and their culture within an Islamic, sort of system.

So, it's very important for Malaysia to step up to the plate. Be brave! Have an interfaith commission.

This is really contradictory to what the PM just said this morning, unfortunately, you know. You can print it, I don't care, please do, I want him to know, that it is important that we, an interfaith panel or commission is not about converting each other. It is about knowing our common denominator. How bad is that? It is a great force to work with.

And if Malaysia as a Muslim country, officially a Muslim country, can have an interfaith commission, that is respectful, that is endorsed by the government and the people, you know, it just brings people of all faiths together.

And so, if Malaysia wants to be the leader in leading peace in this world, then we need to also talk about peace within the faith-based system. We have to have peace in the faith-based system. We have to have that respect.

There are so many common things between our faiths and that is what I learned from being active in interfaith groups.

We don't fight over, oh, 'I don't believe in Jesus Christ so don't talk to me about Jesus Christ', you know. We don't talk like that to each other.

We say you believe in that, fine, I believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, that's it. Jews don't believe in Jesus Christ at all!

So, who cares? But our core value system is all similar because it comes from the same source. And so we need to capitalise on that to unite people.

We need to unite Malaysians of all faiths. Because we are a very religious, spiritual country. All our faiths, a lot of them practise their religion, right? So, we need to capitalise on that. It is a great tool for bringing people together.

No, you stay out of politics, you stick to the spiritual factors, the faith-based issues.

There are a lot of radio stations but there was one in particular in Los Angeles with a very right-wing radio presenter who was slandering Islam, almost on a daily basis. He has millions of listeners. I forget his name. But it might be on ICUJP website (www.icujp.org).

So, we stood in front of the radio station and held a press conference. The Jewish rabbis were saying, you would never say that about the Jewish faith. So, what we started doing is calling the radio station advertisers and (asked) them to stop sponsoring, buying advertisement on that radio programme for that particular slot.

And it really worked. And so, he ended up apologising for the statements he made and so far so goodlah. But we wouldn't have been able to wage this war against this particular radio station, this personality in particular, without the help, without the umbrella of an interfaith organisation. If it was just a Muslim organisation doing it, it would not have had any weight whatsoever.

Yes. We have to look out for each other. If a Jewish guy is being slandered I will defend him just as hard as I was going to defend a Muslim guy who is being slandered. That is me.

But I know the Muslims in America, not all of them are like that, especially the big organisations in America. They are very active in interfaith now for the most part because it is to the benefit of the Muslim community.

Because Sikhs wear the turban, wear the beard, some Americans think they're all Muslims, which is what happened, because they shot a Sikh. They killed the guy because they thought he was a Muslim.

Then, I don't think a Muslim organisation would be as active because it doesn't benefit the Muslim community.

So it was very selfishly-motivated. And that's where also I have an issue with the niat, the intention (behind these Muslim organisations).

Yah, we do. We do, for one, it unites people and we have all kinds of faiths in Malaysia and it is a great unifying factor and I think we need it now more than ever. Number two, I don't think the races in Malaysia is as apa (what)?

Integrated?

Integrated. That's probably good enough of a word. As integrated as it seems. I think there is more segregation thinking. I mean, if you go to universities in Malaysia, you know, Malays hang out with Malays, Chinese with Chinese, Hindus with Hindus, and gays with gays and that's it, you know.

Nobody is really mixing with each other because 'you are not like me'. So, there is no integration.

I spoke to a university professor the other night and she was telling me that. She had to force them to sit alternate, like Malay, Chinese, Indian. She had to force them to sit like that because otherwise they will just like, segregate. Which is also human nature.

But, if we emphasise the common denominators that we have by way of faith, by way of the fact that we are Malaysians first, not Muslims first, not Chinese first, whatever.

According to the youth statistics (by the Merdeka Centre for Opinion Research) that came out, the Malays identified themselves as Muslim majority rather than as Malays, which is really shocking, and then I think, a small percentage as Malaysians.

The Chinese were the reverse, they identified themselves as Chinese, followed by Malaysians, then by Buddhists.

And there're too many factors in the world I think that, okay like this: You have to look at it as an atom. You have the core, the nuclei which are people of all faiths uniting and working together.

And you have the extremes of each faith, the negative electrons pulling us apart, segregating us, with politics, with economics, with cartoons, with whateverlah, with bombings and cutting each other's throats.

So, those people are pulling the core. (The core) population of the world I think are just normal people practising whatever faith. If we can bring in and unify people, of all faiths, in the centre, then we will have a larger nuclei, a more peaceful world, a more peaceful Malaysia.

You know Malaysia macam mana (how is it)? There're too many elements pulling. 'Oh, Islam like this, so we have to be like this.' There're all these extremist views. We cannot allow extremist views to take over our life. We must not allow that to happen. They will ruin our lives!

And in America, it is more apparent because a lot of extremist groups love America because they are free to set it up over there.

So all the extremist groups are there in America. You name it, it's there. And their job is just to pull the world apart. They are not there in the business of uniting people.

So, Malaysia should take the opposite role and unite people. It's there, use it!

Shouldn't be ashamed, shouldn't be afraid. The benefits, I tell you, are so amazing when you see human beings helping each other, caring for each other on a spiritual level, no matter what religion you are, it is, you can't put it into words.

You boleh menangislah (you would cry), that's all I can say. It is such a beautiful relationship, it is such a beautiful emotion.

And I think that is probably what God wants us to strive for.

I think I touched a bit on that earlier on and throughout my talk. How we live? I think, I don't know. I do know this.

It worries me that in school, you have Muslim kids going to kelas agama (religious class) and you have the non-Muslim kids going to morality class.

It worries me that there was a Malay child who went to a birthday party, (of) a Chinese friend and then told all his Chinese friends they are all going to hell.

I'm sure that is not in the ugama (religious) curriculum but I'm sure there are some embellishments by the teacher.

My daughter gets it in her Islamic Sunday school, too. So I pulled her out. I'm not going to have my daughter's mind contaminated by this holier-than-thou. It is very dangerous.

That's how you get extremist Jewish, people who think that Israel, all of it, belongs to them, it doesn't belong to Palestine and they use the Torah as the term and they go shoot innocent people. It starts from there, at a young age.

It really worries me what kind of Muslims we are nurturing in our education system. Even at a young age, you are already teaching them to differentiate between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.

Should it matter? It should not matter. It should not matter what faith you are. It should matter that you are a good person. That in itself is being a good human being, being a good Muslim, from the Muslim perspectivelah.

So, if we are teaching our kids to differentiate, morality is for non-Muslims and we are Muslims, we go to different class and right away you, I know that happens to my friend's daughter, she already differentiates between who's Muslim, who's not.

This is Malaysia I'm talking about, and she's seven years old! I'm not talking about a 12-year-old. That's very scary. That's hardcore indoctrination.

And then what they teach in the curriculum, I have no idea, I'm not versed, so I'm not going to comment on it but even if the, er, the fact that you have a kid coming and saying something like that at the age of seven, then, that doesn't say very much to me, you know.

I don't think the umbrella group Article 11 is fighting Islam. That's not what they are fighting.

They are fighting for the Constitution to stand on its own merit. That's all. They are not trying to fight Islam.

So, I think there has been a lot of misinformation by people pulling the community apart, our Malaysian society apart.

Like I said, there are a lot of these people all over the world. And that's why it is important to have an interfaith council.

To hold it together, to be rational, when things like this happen, you have a united voice of all faiths speaking rationally for the sake, for the fairness, of everyone. Now you have this group saying this, there is so much misinformation, and (it's) intentional.

Intentional misinformation?

Yah, for sure. So, this Article 11 is not attacking Islam. They are just defending what is in the Constitution, that's all! And I think Muslims need to feel less insecure about their faith. This has a lot to do with being insecure. And I'm not sure why. I mean, it wasn't the Muslims who were in the Holocaust. It was the Jews, so we have no reason to be insecure, you know.

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The Denmark event was on the anniversary of the British (tube and bus) bombings (in London) by British Muslims, and we had it in Copenhagen because that's where the cartoon fiasco started. It was basically about Muslim identity in the West, Muslim integration in the West. It was organised by ASMA Society and the Cordoba Initiative (a multi-faith organisation).

It was financed by the World Economic Forum and they are very interested in finding a harmony between the West, whatever that represents, and the East, whatever the East represents. It doesn't necessarily mean that East means Muslim because East means Christians and Buddhists and Hindus.

So, this was really about Muslim identity in the West, and how confused they've become. I also talked about this earlier when I said how some Muslim parents raised their children in an isolationist manner, and about how everything is haram.

So we had a dialogue with, Flemming Rose, the Danish publisher who printed the cartoons of Prophet Muhammad. One thing he came to learn was that there was a really diverse Muslim world out there besides the ones who are fanatical and threatening his life and his family's. So, that in a sense, was an educational process for him. For us, it was a way for us to inform them of our unhappiness over (the cartoons).

For me, personally, it was stupid, the cartoons were really stupid. It wasn't worth my while. And, I feel really disgusted with the violent reaction of the Muslims. Two wrongs don't make it a right, you know! All the stereotype in the cartoon, we justified it! The Muslims just fell into it!

And then there's the issue of censorship, of self-censorship and that also goes back to us as Muslims always censoring ourselves. We are not allowing ourselves to push the envelope, to challenge, because we're too afraid to do that.

When we talk about ijtihad, we're talking about how we read the Quran, and how we're censoring ourselves. We're afraid of the violence that it might elicit.

Um, I'm not afraid of that necessarily because I live in America but if I lived in Europe, I would be. I wouldn't be as vocal. Um, so, Denmark really highlighted a lot of the identity crisis that Muslims have, and in some aspects, I can see some of the similarities in America but I think the beauty about America is that you have the American pie dream that means, you come, you build, you make your money, you can own a part of America, end of story, whatever religion you are, whatever colour you are, it's not so relevant.

Because America is about the land of the immigrant. Whereas in Europe, it's not about that. My husband is from Holland. There, even if you're a Turk and you're born in Holland, you're born a Turk, you die a Turk. There's no such thing as a Dutch of Turkish descent, you know. It's hard for them to really accept that Holland is a multi-cultural country. Denmark is now a multi-cultural country and it is very hard for them to accept that too. They have been a pure white, Dane, uniform, one-way-of-thinking for a long, long time, for centuries but they are trying.

Well, one thing was obvious. Flip the other side. We, Malays are the original nationals, the majority and then all the immigrant Chinese and Indians came and they are the minority. So, the Malays are the Caucasian Danes. We are the flip side of Denmark!

If we want minority Muslims in the Western world to be given the rights and respect (they deserve) then we have to do the same here! Simple. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror before we point fingers at others.

Ya, on the arts. I'm also the co-founder of the Interfaith Arts and Music Festival called God Loves Beauty. I co-founded it with an Episcopelian Church to break down barriers through arts and music, and to work together. You make the best friends when you work together. That is the first priority.

The second is to nurture female Muslim artistes and painters, and we have been successful in that already. They don't have any other channel, so I'm just creating a channel for them. I would love for someone to duplicate that in Malaysia. It's an open invitation. I want the whole world to duplicate it. Take the idea, make it better, build communities of peace and understanding. That's what I want to do.

• Singing about faith